Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by jim harris on July 5, 2009 at 8:01pm

you no about how we got the king james versoin it was taken from the hebrew. the real book of genesis is as thick as war and peace. you must understaind how to translate the hebrew to get the old testement, king james wanted to make it so anyone could read the bible and understaind what god was telling us we do not
make god fit our life! we come to him and his way! for us to say I'm this or that is wrong jesus never said go to the chirch of christ or to the baptist church down the street anyone that puts seperation between what god has said is not a true church! jesus went into HIS church and flipped over the table NOT YOURS! ITS NOT YOUR CHURCH ITS GODS! and by the way my mother was a mormon! what makes anyone think they have it all right is beyond me! the bible stands on its own! I know all about the seagulls the tabs but satin has a lot of power and just because we see somthing miraculus does not mean it came from god, god is not the god of confusion and true chrisians know this! baptist, mormon,catholic,pentacostal much confusion in the world to day! and that my friend is way the world is so messed up today we have torn apart every thing god has told us by thinking some pastor or priest knows more of what we need to be than god!
Edmund Mann-Wight said:

Jason, admirably put.
Marilyn, I commend your studious and inquisitive nature. Continue your search for the Truth. If something is true it will withstand all tests.

"Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

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Permalink Reply by jim harris on July 5, 2009 at 8:09pm

ok get out your concordance and explain this do you really know what that passage means? I have one for you LET HE WHO CAN READ READ! if YOU don't study you open yourself to be mislead!


Edmund Mann-Wight said:

Jason, admirably put.
Marilyn, I commend your studious and inquisitive nature. Continue your search for the Truth. If something is true it will withstand all tests.

"Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

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Permalink Reply by Jason Cannon on July 6, 2009 at 2:05pm

Tom, correct me if im wrong, but I do not think that I have even referenced the book of mormon or the doctrine of covenants. What I have used is historical fact and scriptures from the bible. I never said the bible is not the word of god. Infact I have said repeatedly it is the word of god. What I have said however is that the bible had been changed becuase of man. I offer you this proof:

the following scripture:
Acts 9:1-19
Acts 22:6-18
Acts 26:12-18
Gal 1:11-20

all recount the story of the conversion of saul
all tell a different tale.
the first one the men with saul claim they heard the voice. the second they say they saw a light, but did not hear anything.
the third says to accept christ first instead of going directly to Damascus.
the fourth says he never went to anybody even though the first 3 said he did.

All of these stories were changed by man. This is mistakes made by man not by god.


Did I ever say mormons were far-surperior? No. I never even told people to investigate my religion. Marilyn asked for a book, so I told her of one. I did not tell her to convert. I did nothing of the sort.

I would also like to state something. The mormon church has 13 "Articles of Faith" were we summarize our beliefs in a simple way. The 8th article of faith states "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." We know that the bible is the word of god, that it contains holy scriptures. But through mistranslations and mistakes of men, the bible has had many things changed in it. The King James of the bible came to us from hebrew to greek to latin to german to english. Bringing things from one language to another brings mistakes. imagine the mistakes made from all of these translations.
Tom "The Tominator" Brace said:

Actually, Jason, the Bible does NOT claim, as you do, that a true Christian is one who "follows the teachings of Christ." What it most clearly does state, however, is that a true Christian is one who is covered by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and has given the lordship of his or her life over to the One who so loved the world that He gave His one and only begotten son, that whosoever shall believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. If it were all about merely following someone's teachings, as you do with Joseph Smith and your temporal "prophets," then who would need to be saved? All it would take for us to enter the Kingdom of God would be a mental assertion of Christ's teachings, and not a complete surrender of one's will to His. Sorry, Charlie... it just don't work that way. It takes blood for redemption, not bookishness.
The hardest person to convince of the wrongness of their worldview is a religious person. I have found, through observation, and in my own personal experience, that the person so steeped in their religion is often harder to convince of their need for the Truth than an outright sinner who has had no desire up until that point in knowing the true and living God. They believe that they are already righteous (based upon their knowledge, or traditions), and therefore have no further need of anything more. Furthermore, when someone who sincerely cares enough about them to attempt to steer them in the opposite direction from the precipice of their religion's false teachings, they become incensed, offended and resort to ad hominem attacks, very much like liberals do within the context of political discussions.
Based on what I've read in your posts, it is clear that you are not trying to discuss the Bible at all (as witnessed by your ad nauseum declarations that the Bible is not the inspired word of God, but a flawed book written and perverted by men). You are trying to convince us here that YOUR religion, Mormonism, is the far superior religion, and you proclaim the self-delusion that you are, by your own subjective definition, a "true" Christian.

The tone and content of your posts scream out to all that you have absolutely no real knowledge of objective truth, nor do you want to know. You haven't yet, but I predict that you will soon claim that the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price and whatever other LDS books you own are equal to, or greater than the Bible.

Jim has tried to show you, through a scholarly and methodical study of canonical scripture, what the Bible teaches us, but you have not only dismissed what he (and others) has tried to share with you, but you have adopted a sarcastic, defensive and combative tone. Therefore, he has, it seems to me, given you over to whatever nonsense with which your MAN-MADE religious system (Mormonism) will tickle your itching ears.

Rightly did Jesus condemn "religious" people like you when he said "Woe to you... you travel the earth to make a single convert, and when you do, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." (I'm paraphrasing here, but you get the idea, hopefully). This is what you have attempted to do with Marilyn. Her own predisposition toward religion over relationship makes her an easy mark for any spiritual snake-oil salesman to lead her away from the truth and into the darkness of falsehood.

You also claim that all protestant religions were started because they didn't agree with catholic (lowercase c) teachings. This is only partially the case. Protestantism came about as a counter to the Roman Catholic (uppercase C, which I will explain in a moment) dogmas, their selling of indulgences, their elevation of their church's traditions to the equal of God-inspired scripture, the arrogant placing of the pope as the only representative of God on Earth, and so many other blasphemous abominations it would take a book to list. You have this strange tendency to defend and champion religion over relationship. I truly feel sorry for you.

You used the word "catholic" before. The word "catholic" means "universal." When you capitalize the C in Catholic, and place the word Roman before it (as the Roman Catholic church does in reference to itself), you nullify the definition of the word. The very word "Roman" denotes ownership. How, then, can something that is universal be owned, by any religious organization. The simple answer is that it cannot, thus the Roman Catholic church is an inherent contradiction (and an oxymoron).

Rather than keep flogging your dead horse regarding the use of the word "trinity," and your insistence that the Bible is some sort of flawed and erroneous document cobbled together by perverted men, please try to use whatever leftover energy you have to give serious consideration to what Jim (who is far and away more accomplished, eloquent and just plain correct than you will ever be in matters relating to the Bible) has so very patiently and sincerely tried to show you.

But I don't kid myself for a minute that anything I've just said will resonate with you. You've settled what you believe in your mind already.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Cannon on July 6, 2009 at 2:06pm

And thank for edmund for writing out a far more detailed response than I did. and I appreciate your remarks.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Cannon on July 6, 2009 at 2:27pm

I would also like to point out that all the apostales, including jesus were missionaries. Therefore, by your logic Tom, ALL CHRISTIANS, are sons of hell. please rethink your logic.

Also, Jesus died for everyones sins. He is not the christian god, he is the god of all the world. He died for everyone. His atonement goes out to everyone. It would make no sense for his saving grace to only apply to christians. What about the people in Iraq or North Korea, who never had a chance to hear the gospel of christ? Are they damned to hell becuase of where they were born? That does not sound like something a loving god would teach. All are saved by jesus.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Robinson on July 6, 2009 at 6:09pm

Tom, you are wasting your time and breath with Jason and Edmund. They are already convinced in their follies.

Edmund did make a point though that I am going to call him on. It was suggested that I am not much of a scholar or teacher of God's Word merely because I have not tried to bombard and bore everyone here with lengthy and detailed discussions that really don't fit well on forums like this (and Jason is absolutely wrong when he states that someone can be a true Christian and not believe in the infallibility of the Bible and the Blessed Trinity). I am calling Edmund's bluff by giving you just a very tiny view and taste of the life and work of Bible teachers and scholars.

Here is the link for downloading a small 5 page .PDF file that merely touches on the many Scriptures that do support the doctrine of the Trinity (Triune-unity of the eternal Godhead:

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Permalink Reply by Jim Robinson on July 6, 2009 at 6:14pm

And here is a very small taste and view of the world of Bible teachers and scholars (and I will not do this again; this is why I don't use this forum for doing in-depth Bible studies). Welcome to my world:

***********************************

It has been suggested that I am not a scholar merely because I have not tried to
bore you with lengthy and detailed discussions about the Bible on this platform.
I am calling that bluff and lie. Welcome to my world and that of other Bible
scholars and teachers as I quickly cover just 10 simple proofs (out of 89) that
prove the Christian teaching of the Divine Trinity . If you find these 10 points
overwhelming, just try to imagine 79 more just like them (and these 89 points
come from only one small section in my Bible references; there are many more
sections that go into even more detail than these first 89 points):

Just the First 10 Proofs of 89 Proofs That Prove the Teaching of
the Divine Trinity

What we mean by Divine Trinity is that there are three separate and distinct
persons in the Godhead, each one having his own personal spirit body, personal
soul, and personal spirit in the same sense each human being, angel, or any
other being has his own body, soul, and spirit. We mean by body, whether a
spirit body or a flesh body, the house for the indwelling of the personal soul and
spirit. The soul is that which feels, and the spirit is that which knows.

The doctrine of the Trinity can be clearly seen, being understood by the
visible things that are made, even to His eternal power and Godhead (Rom.
1:20). What on earth was created in the image and likeness of God? Man (Gen.
1:26‐28). Do God’s image and likeness consist only of moral and spiritual
powers? If so, it can be concluded that man is only a moral and spiritual being.
Is God bodiless? If so, we can conclude that man is also bodiless. Is God only
one being made up of several persons or beings in the one being? If so, we can
conclude that man is one person or being made up of many. Does God need a
flesh body in order to have any kind of body? No! There are such things as spirit
and heavenly bodies (1 Cor. 15:35‐38). From this passage we learn that all
things in creation – grain, fish, birds, beasts, man, angels, and even planets have
bodies, sizes, shapes, and forms.

The Bible declares that God has a body, shape (Greek “eidos” ‐ external
appearance, form, figure), image, likeness, bodily parts, a personal soul and
spirit, and all other things that constitute a being or a person with a body, soul,
and spirit – John 4:24; 5:37; Gen. 18:1‐8; 32:24‐30; Ex. 24:9‐11; Josh. 5:13‐15;
Judg. 6:11‐23; 13:3‐23; 1 Chr. 21:16; Job 42:5; Isa.6; Amos 9:1; Ezek. 1:26‐28;
Dan. 7:9‐14; 10:5‐6; Act 7:56‐59; Rev. 4‐5). These verses prove that God has a
spiritual, not physical, bodily shape and voice.

Man’s creation: (1) Inner man created (Gen. 1:26‐27; 5:1‐2), (2) Body
formed of dust (Gen. 2:7; 3:19), (3) Made in God’s own image bodily. Heb.
“tselem”, shape, figure, bodily form (Gen. 1:27; 5:3; 9:6; Ex. 20:4; Lev. 26:1; Ps.
73:20; 106:19; Isa. 40:19‐20; 44:9‐17; 45:20; 48:5; Jer. 10:14; 51:17), (4) Made
in God’s own likeness bodily. Hebrew “demooth,” model, shape, similitude,
resemblance (Gen. 1:27; 5:1,3; Isa. 40:18; Ezek. 1:5,10,13,16,22,26,28;
10:1,10,21‐22). Deuteronomy 4:15 or no other scripture does away with the
bodily (spiritual) form of God. Just because Israel did not see any form when
God spoke is no proof that He is bodiless and without form any more than
someone else who might be heard and whose body is not seen. Many in Israel
did see God’s body (Gen. 18; 32:24‐30; Ex. 24:9‐11; Josh. 5:13‐15; Judg. 6:11‐23;
13:3‐23; 1 Chr. 21:16‐17; Job 42:5; Isa. 6; Ezek. 1:26; Dan. 7:9‐14; 10:5‐6; Acts
7:56‐59; Rev. 4:2‐5; 5:1‐7). There is no question but that man was made in the
likeness of God in soul and spirit (Eph. 4:22‐24; Col. 3:10), but this does not do
away with the body image and likeness of God, as stated in the many passages
above. All angels and spirit beings have bodies as well as souls and spirits. Even
resurrected human bodies are called spiritual (1 Cor. 15:42‐44), yet they will
also be material (Lk. 24:39; Phil. 3:21). Misunderstandings of this subject come
from not knowing what spirits are in the Bible.

Angels, cherubim, seraphim, and all other spirit beings have spirit bodies
and personal souls and spirits. They have been seen with the natural eyes of
men over 100 times in Scripture (Heb . 13:2). If all other spirit beings have spirit
bodies, could not the members of the Trinity also have spirit bodies? The 284
passages of spirits in Scripture prove that spirit bodies are just as real and
capable of operation in the material worlds as are flesh beings. There is no such
thing as a world of creations made up of invisible substance. The so‐called
spirit‐world must be understood simply as spirit beings inhabiting material
worlds created by God. Heaven itself is a material planet (Gen. 1:1; Heb. 11:10‐
16), having cities, mansions, furniture, inhabitants, living conditions, etc.

God has been seen bodily by human eyes many times (as previously cited).
In over 20,000 references about God in Scripture we get to know all we need to
know about the subject. If we will take the Bible literally as to what it says about
Him, as we do with other things, the subject will be very clear; but if we make
God a mystery, ignore the plain statements of Scripture about Him, and refuse
to believe the many descriptions of God given by those who have seen one,
two, and three separate persons called “God,” then we will remain in ignorance.

It is true there are a few figurative statements about God in Scripture, as
there are about man and other things, but shall we do away with the reality of
man and these other things because of a few figures of speech? Let us make
man mere salt and lights (Mt. 5:13‐14), if we are going to do away with God
because of a few figures of speech.

We submit the following 89 proofs from Scripture that prove a Divine Trinity
of separate persons in the Godhead:

1. The word one means one in unity as well as one in number. It
means unity in 1 Jn. 5:7, as it does in Jn. 17:11,21‐23, and yet these
three persons, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, are spoken of
as one each in number and individually in Scripture. There is one God
the Father, one Lord Jesus Christ, and one Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 8:6; Eph.
4:3‐6). Thus there are three separate persons in divine individuality and
divine plurality. The Father is called God (1 Cor. 8:6), the Son is called
God (Isa. 9:6‐7; Heb. 1:8; Jn. 1:1‐2; 20:28), and the Holy Spirit is called
God (Acts 5:3‐4). As individual persons each can be called God and
collectively they can be spoken of as one God because of the perfect
unity. The word God is used either as a singular or plural word, just like
the word sheep. Everything that could be spoken of God collectively
applies equally to each member of the Triune Godhead as an individual,
but there are some things that are said of each person of the Deity as to
position, office, and work that could not be spoken as of the other
members of the Godhead. The Father is the head of Christ (1 Cor. 11:3);
the Son is the only Begotten of the Father (2 Jn. 3), and the Holy Spirit
proceeds from both the Father and the Son (Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7‐
15; Acts 2:34).

2. Names of God prove plurality of persons. The Hebrew Elohim is
the word for God in Gen. 1:1 and in over 2700 other places in the Old
Testament. It is a uni‐plural noun meaning Gods and is so translated 239
times (Gen. 3:5; Ex. 22:28; 1 Sam. 4:8; Dan. 2:11; 4:6‐9; 5:11,14; etc.).
Sometimes Elohim is used with plural verbs and pronouns, “the Gods
they caused me to wander” (Gen. 20:13), and “there the Gods they
appeared unto him” (Gen. 35:7).

3. Plural pronouns are used of God, proving plurality of persons
(Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8; Jn. 14:23; 17:11,22‐23).

4. First, second, and third personal pronouns are used hundreds of
times in Scripture, referring to one, two, and three persons of the
Godhead in the same sense they are used of men. Sometimes the
different members of the Deity use them to and of one another in the
same sense man uses them. In Jn. 17 alone Jesus uses them 162 times in
speaking to and of His Father. Compare Jn. 14:16‐17, 26; 15:26; 16:7‐15.
Sometimes singular pronouns are used of the whole Godhead of three
members as a unity (Ex. 20:3; Isa. 44:6,8; 45:5,21; 46:9; Hos. 13:4), just
like the whole church as a unit is spoken of as a man and he (Eph. 2:14‐
15; 4:13; 5:25‐27; 2 Th. 2:7‐8).

5. Man is become as one of us proves plurality of persons (Gen.
3:22).

6. Two and three persons called God have been seen by the same
men at the same time and places as being separate persons (Dan. 7:9‐
14; Mt. 3:16‐17; Jn. 1:31‐34; Acts 7:54‐60; Rev. 6:16; 7:9‐17; 21:22;
22:3).

7. Two Lords are mentioned in Gen. 19:24; one on earth and one in
heaven.

8. Two persons are referred to in the Old Testament. See Ps. 8:5‐6
with Heb. 2:5‐18; Ps. 16:8‐10 with Acts 2:25‐36; Ps. 22:1‐22 with Mt.
27:35,39‐43,45‐46; Heb. 9:14; 10:5‐12; Ps. 40:6‐10 with Heb. 10:5‐7; and
Ps. 45:6‐7 with Heb. 1:8‐9.

9. Two Lords are mentioned sitting side by side (Ps. 110:1,5; Mt.
22:44; 26:64; Acts 2:33‐34; 7:54‐56; Rom. 8:34; Eph. 1:20; Col. 3:1; Heb.
1:3,13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet. 3:22; Rev. 22:3).

10. Two persons are mentioned and required in order to understand
the plain language of Ps. 2; 89:19; 132:17; Pr. 30:4; Isa. 4:2; 10:16‐17;
28:16; 49:1‐10; 50:4‐11; 52:13‐53:12; 62:11; Mic. 5:1‐5; Jer. 23:4‐8;
33:14‐26; Zech. 3:8‐10; 6:12‐13. In these passages one is anointed,
becomes the son of, is sent by, is taught by, and becomes the servant of
the other; and both are called Lord.

And there are 79 more points just like these in just one section of notes alone,
and I could provide many more sections of notes to drag out this discussion
even much longer. This is the life and work of Bible scholars and teachers of
God’s Word, and this is why I have not tried to bore you good folks with long
posts like this!

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Permalink Reply by Greg Russell on July 6, 2009 at 6:21pm

You know, debating Doctrine is all good and well. It can be fun if it can be done in such a way that all maintain temperance, which is hardly ever the case. Some Christian points are absolutely vital to having a true relationship with Christ, and therefore God Almighty. Other Christian points, although perhaps important to some, really have no bearing on any one person`s salvation. Some things, only God, (and Jesus), know, but we do have the vital, necessary Doctrine, don`t we?

Acts 4:12 says: Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

You must believe Christ is the true Son of the Living God, that His death on the cross paid the penalty for your sin, so that He became the bridge between us and God. That He rose on the third day, assended into Heaven, and sits at the right Hand of the Father.

Either people will believe or they won`t. That simple, period. 1 Corinthians 1:18 says:
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Bless the Lord, and all glory to God for His mercy and Grace.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Robinson on July 6, 2009 at 6:22pm

And don't forget or neglect to check out each and every Bible reference! Now imagine just a small report, oh say, 50 times larger than this post with literally thousands of references to check and verify -- not including word studies in Hebrew and Greek! (And the Trinity is one of the fun subjects!)

And I certainly encourage BetterBob to delete my lengthy post as Jason, Marilyn, and Edmund have proven that they are not really interested in conducting productive Bible classes here online! And Greg, this is why I don't wast my time debating and arguing with fools and idiots that only want to argue and fight for the fun of it. This is why I am leaving this group, but not this site, and steering away from these ridiculous arguments and fights that really only work against our cause and not in favor of it.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Cannon on July 6, 2009 at 7:43pm

Those are worth answers. First, adding to the bible. I would like to point out that the bible was collected far after each individual books was written. The word bible, from the greek word biblia meaning collection of books. The holy bible as we know it today is a compilation of holy scriptures. Thus when it says you shouldn't add to the scriptures it was talking about that set of scriptures not the bible. Anyways the book of mormon also is not adding to the bible. It is a third book that supports the bible.

As for the questions:
Yes Jesus Christ is the first born of the father. He is our lord and saviour.
Yes he is the brother of lucifer. Likewise he is our brother too. Becuase we are all children of our heavenly father.
No he is not equal to the archangel michael. The archangel michael is adam, before coming to earth.
Yes God is our heavenly father
Yes he was once a man. And through eternal progression and celestial exaltation he became a god.
When you die you go to either spirit paradise, if you knew and accepted jesus. or spirit prision, if you didnt know the gospel. This is not heaven or hell. It is were everyone gets the chance to accept the gospel of jesus. Then, when it is time for the resurection, you are seperated into 4 areas. 1.) outter darkness, only the evil of evil go here. equivalint to hell. 2.) telestial kingdom, far greater than earth but still the bottom of the chain where those who were ok in life go. 3.) terlestial kingdom. better than the telestial kingdom where the average mormon and the good people of the world go. 4.) celestial kingdom. the greatest. where the righteous mormons go.

If you are righteous enough you achieve exaltation within the celestial kingdom and become like god.

As to what you do? You continue to eternally progress. You become resurected and you live on earth without evil and you learn and live forever in an eternal state.

Any more questions?

Tom "The Tominator" Brace said:

You say that the Book of Mormon is also the word of God. I say that it is not. It attempts to add to scripture, and the Bible itself takes a very dim view of this (Proverbs 30:6, Revelations 22:18). The apostles Peter, James, John and Jude also warned us to watch out for those who would twist scripture to their own destruction, and to have nothing to do with them.

And, regarding your Book, I never said that you did; I predicted that you would. There's a difference.

The supposition that different verses in the book of Acts use different words to explain the same event (Paul's Damascus Road conversion) is immaterial. The point isn't whether it was a voice or a light or anything else - the point is that Saul Paulus of Tarsus, who persecuted the early church to the point of death, was visited by the Living Christ, and as a result of this experience, became born again and turned from his wicked ways and became a follower of Jesus. You can argue all you want about English translations of Hebrew, Greek, Latin, or German words, phrases and shades of meaning. The Bible is inspired by God, infallible and non-contradictory in its original languages. Translations come and go, but the Word remains. There are some translations that I prefer over others, but I don't consider any translation unable to teach the precepts and wisdom that God has lovingly provided within.

In your estimation, Do Mormon scriptures contain errors made by men (I realize that this is a loaded question)?

Let me ask you: is Jesus Christ, according to the LDS faith, the One and Only Begotten Son of God, pre-existent with Him at the creation of all things, or is He something or someone else, say, the spirit-brother of Lucifer or on an equal footing with the archangel Michael? Is God our Heavenly Father, according to LDS doctrine, eternal and transcendent, without beginning or end, separate from and greater than His creation, or was He once a man, like you and me? What happens, according to LDS doctrine, to the believer after they die? Where do they go and what do they do?

These are honest and serious questions, and worthy of an honest and serious answer, wouldn't you say?

Jason Cannon said:

Tom, correct me if im wrong, but I do not think that I have even referenced the book of mormon or the doctrine of covenants. What I have used is historical fact and scriptures from the bible. I never said the bible is not the word of god. Infact I have said repeatedly it is the word of god. What I have said however is that the bible had been changed becuase of man. I offer you this proof:

the following scripture:
Acts 9:1-19
Acts 22:6-18
Acts 26:12-18
Gal 1:11-20

all recount the story of the conversion of saul
all tell a different tale.
the first one the men with saul claim they heard the voice. the second they say they saw a light, but did not hear anything.
the third says to accept christ first instead of going directly to Damascus.
the fourth says he never went to anybody even though the first 3 said he did.

All of these stories were changed by man. This is mistakes made by man not by god.


Did I ever say mormons were far-surperior? No. I never even told people to investigate my religion. Marilyn asked for a book, so I told her of one. I did not tell her to convert. I did nothing of the sort.

I would also like to state something. The mormon church has 13 "Articles of Faith" were we summarize our beliefs in a simple way. The 8th article of faith states "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." We know that the bible is the word of god, that it contains holy scriptures. But through mistranslations and mistakes of men, the bible has had many things changed in it. The King James of the bible came to us from hebrew to greek to latin to german to english. Bringing things from one language to another brings mistakes. imagine the mistakes made from all of these translations.

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Permalink Reply by jim harris on July 6, 2009 at 8:15pm

mr.mann-wight and jason I do not give chap&vers. for a reason to make one find it for himself I would rather you not take my word for it but to read and learn for yourself but,this one time I will hold your hand for you.
peter 1:20to21 st.john 14:6 to 15 and st luke 21:12 to20 happy reading all I have said, is in the bible for you to read and what do you think god would let a man twist or change his word? I would not want that wrath on my head, and scholars did condence the bible so it would not take a preist to translate it ,if you know anything about history you'll know king james said I want it so a farmer can understaind it in the feild! the most meaning
full parts where in fact not removed or changed in any way and if you think you are missing anything then learn to read hebrew that was writen at that time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this is why we must get it in our heads that debating is learning!!!!!!!!!!!! and I have won this debate for no one can say anything I have said is not the works of god. Saying man put it on paper is a slap in gods face as if he could not stop it anytime he wanted and was a false god shame on that person! and I'll give you a hint
if you read the red part's you will find FOR I AM THE FATHER AND HE IS IN ME! GOD BLESS AND MAY HE GUIDE YOU INTO THE LIGHT.





Edmund Mann-Wight said:

Mr. Brace, please allow me to interject some thoughts here as I find some rather pointed inconsistencies with your discourse.
Firstly, Mr. Cannon states that he is Christian and believes in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. You reply in Paragraph 1 that he cannot be, according to you, but then you give John 3:16 as the reason why; and this verse clearly states that "WHOSOEVER" believes in Him...etc. That includes Mr. Cannon.
In Paragraph 2 you state, "I have found.....that the person so steeped in their religion is often harder to convince of their need for the Truth..." Do you not see how this statement applies to yourself as well?
In Paragraph 3 you state, "You are trying to convince us here that YOUR religion...is the far superior religion." I see no evidence anywhere that Mr. Cannon attempted to convince anyone of anything. He merely made some observations and statements. And, again, this statement can be turned on yourself. Really.
In Paragraph 4 you state, "The tone and content of your posts scream out to all that you have absolutely no real knowledge of objective truth..." I see no facts to support this regarding Mr. Cannon. Perhaps he replied with a little sarcasm but he has been soundly insulted and accused of not being a "true" Christian. Your very lenghthy posts do a lot more screaming out than his.
In Paragraph 5 you state: "Jim has tried to show you, through a scholarly and methodical study of canonical scripture..." So I went back and read a lot of Jim's posts here and elsewhere on this site. (by the way, you and Jim seem like clones) He does a lot of preaching but mostly fails to support his ideas with references. So that is not methodical in my mind. And while he may have studied what others have studied and passed on to him, I don't see any evidence that he, himself, has done any actual translating or studying or researching either the Bible or any other texts of his own accord. If he has it does not show here. He says at one point that the Trinity is just a translation error. No, absolutely not. Or, Jim, if you are referring to the word "elohim" than we will need a separate post for this subject alone. I am just seeing dogma. Nothing scholarly here.
As for the rest of your reply regarding Mr. Cannon's assertion that the Bible is a flawed document because of all the "editing" it has undergone, I agree with Mr. Cannon. The "editing" began as early as the 1st Century A.D. The bulk of it occured almost 400 years later when the emperor Constantine thought that he could unite his two-part empire through religion and arbitrarily picked the up-and-coming Christianity as his vehicle. Many important books were rejected for political purposes only and as a means to maintain control for the Church.
As for the Trinity, it is a very old concept predating Christianity to the Egytian, Akkadian, Sumerian civilizations. This is recorded historical fact. Nothing sinister. And while God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are connected to each other, "Trinity" as you put forth is only a doctrine. It has nothing to do with Hebrew translations or any translation. That is simply incorrect. If you or Jim can prove otherwise, please do so.
The second-to-last paragraph: Here you praise Jim for being more accomplished, eloquent and just plain correct (?) than Jason. Apparently you and Jim feel that way. That is only your opinion. I beg to differ. And patient? Hardly.
And lastly, you seem against being "bookish" or studying. Yet you keep espousing how "studied" this Jim is.
What is wrong with asking questions, seeking your own answers, wondering why? Finding your way to God through Jesus is a personal quest aided by the Holy Spirit. Not forced on you by someone else. That is how a true and personal relationship is born. No one can coerce you into it.
By the way, I am not Mormon; but I do admire them in their faith. And I hold the teachings of that religion in high regard. They do not reject the Bible but embrace it as their own. But they also believe in the revelations of God made to a man regarding our own land. Just as the Bible is the revelations of God to men regarding the Jewish people and the followers of Jesus.
Again, I commend both Jason and Marilyn. Let them find their way.


Tom "The Tominator" Brace said:

Actually, Jason, the Bible does NOT claim, as you do, that a true Christian is one who "follows the teachings of Christ." What it most clearly does state, however, is that a true Christian is one who is covered by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and has given the lordship of his or her life over to the One who so loved the world that He gave His one and only begotten son, that whosoever shall believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. If it were all about merely following someone's teachings, as you do with Joseph Smith and your temporal "prophets," then who would need to be saved? All it would take for us to enter the Kingdom of God would be a mental assertion of Christ's teachings, and not a complete surrender of one's will to His. Sorry, Charlie... it just don't work that way. It takes blood for redemption, not bookishness.

The hardest person to convince of the wrongness of their worldview is a religious person. I have found, through observation, and in my own personal experience, that the person so steeped in their religion is often harder to convince of their need for the Truth than an outright sinner who has had no desire up until that point in knowing the true and living God. They believe that they are already righteous (based upon their knowledge, or traditions), and therefore have no further need of anything more. Furthermore, when someone who sincerely cares enough about them to attempt to steer them in the opposite direction from the precipice of their religion's false teachings, they become incensed, offended and resort to ad hominem attacks, very much like liberals do within the context of political discussions.

Based on what I've read in your posts, it is clear that you are not trying to discuss the Bible at all (as witnessed by your ad nauseum declarations that the Bible is not the inspired word of God, but a flawed book written and perverted by men). You are trying to convince us here that YOUR religion, Mormonism, is the far superior religion, and you proclaim the self-delusion that you are, by your own subjective definition, a "true" Christian.

The tone and content of your posts scream out to all that you have absolutely no real knowledge of objective truth, nor do you want to know. You haven't yet, but I predict that you will soon claim that the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price and whatever other LDS books you own are equal to, or greater than the Bible.

Jim has tried to show you, through a scholarly and methodical study of canonical scripture, what the Bible teaches us, but you have not only dismissed what he (and others) has tried to share with you, but you have adopted a sarcastic, defensive and combative tone. Therefore, he has, it seems to me, given you over to whatever nonsense with which your MAN-MADE religious system (Mormonism) will tickle your itching ears.

Rightly did Jesus condemn "religious" people like you when he said "Woe to you... you travel the earth to make a single convert, and when you do, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are." (I'm paraphrasing here, but you get the idea, hopefully). This is what you have attempted to do with Marilyn. Her own predisposition toward religion over relationship makes her an easy mark for any spiritual snake-oil salesman to lead her away from the truth and into the darkness of falsehood.

You also claim that all protestant religions were started because they didn't agree with catholic (lowercase c) teachings. This is only partially the case. Protestantism came about as a counter to the Roman Catholic (uppercase C, which I will explain in a moment) dogmas, their selling of indulgences, their elevation of their church's traditions to the equal of God-inspired scripture, the arrogant placing of the pope as the only representative of God on Earth, and so many other blasphemous abominations it would take a book to list. You have this strange tendency to defend and champion religion over relationship. I truly feel sorry for you.

You used the word "catholic" before. The word "catholic" means "universal." When you capitalize the C in Catholic, and place the word Roman before it (as the Roman Catholic church does in reference to itself), you nullify the definition of the word. The very word "Roman" denotes ownership. How, then, can something that is universal be owned, by any religious organization. The simple answer is that it cannot, thus the Roman Catholic church is an inherent contradiction (and an oxymoron).

Rather than keep flogging your dead horse regarding the use of the word "trinity," and your insistence that the Bible is some sort of flawed and erroneous document cobbled together by perverted men, please try to use whatever leftover energy you have to give serious consideration to what Jim (who is far and away more accomplished, eloquent and just plain correct than you will ever be in matters relating to the Bible) has so very patiently and sincerely tried to show you.

But I don't kid myself for a minute that anything I've just said will resonate with you. You've settled what you believe in your mind already.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Robinson on July 6, 2009 at 10:33pm

Edmund -- you just lost your bluff, and your credibility, again - and so did you Christina! By your own words, not mine, have you rejected the authority and infallibility of God's Holy Bible, the deity of Jesus Christ, and the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. True Christians would not dare do this.

As a Bible scholar, I must read and study the writings of many men and critics to discern Truth from Error (as the Scriptures command all Christians to do). What I gave you earlier was only a very small portion of the Scriptures that openly proved you, Christina, and Jason wrong about your unbiblical and unchristian beliefs against the Bible, Jesus Christ, and the Trinity -- whether or not you choose to reject them is your choice, but I did give you God's Word on the matter and not mine. So, contrary to Christina's absurd and ridiculous claims, we are not all "true Christians here." You are deceiving yourselves and deceiving others -- and here I will stand on the authority of the Holy Scriptures, as is my duty and obligation as a true Christian and Bible teacher.

In the absolute strongest of terms does the Bible repeatedly command God's People to reject false doctrine and teachers and to only accept the sound doctrine of true teachers of God's Word. This is why the Bible commands God's People to study the Scriptures to show themselves approved unto God and to reject all false doctrines, teachers, and prophets. To say that sound doctrine is not the mark of God's People is to call God, not me, a liar.

Folks, by their own words and admissions have Edmund, Jason, and Christina clearly proven themselves to be false Christians and false disciples promoting false doctrine with their repeated attacks against the Bible, sound doctrine, the deity of Jesus Christ, and the truth of the Blessed Trinity - which are foundational beliefs for all true Christians. As a Bible teacher, I have calmly and clearly pointed out to you that their views are not the views of faithful, dedicated, and true disciples of Jesus Christ -- so please do not swallow their bait, kool-aid, or attacks against those of us that are making a stand for the Truth of God's Word. Let reason, common sense, and the Bible itself prevail. After all, why would any true Christian ever suggest that the Bible is corrupt and written by men and not God, Jesus Christ is not the Son of God, the Trinity is a some kind of hoax or lie, and that sound doctrine is not really that important to the Christian walk and faith ???!!! I'm out of here and back to the Conservative Christians group here on TCU

********************

2 Timothy 4: 2-4 - "Preach the Word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap unto themselves teachers having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the Truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

2 Timothy 2:15-16 - "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness."

2 Timothey 3:1-9 - "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the Truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."

2 Timothy 3:12,13 - "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."

John 4:23,24 - "But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a spirit: and they who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

1 Timothy 4:1 - "Now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron. . . "

2 John 7-11 - "For many deceivers are entered into the world who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (a denial of the Incarnation). This is a deceiver and an Antichrist."

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