Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jason Cannon on July 5, 2009 at 3:12am

and also, you claim that the bible must be true. That is however also a lie. The bible was written and passed down by different monks through the dark ages. If a monk did not agree with a scripture, he simply did not write it in the copy that they passed on. Likewise, they would add things in there to make what they want scripture.

also, god did not write the bible. Man did. It is a collection of writings from human beings under divine inspiration. still god himself did not write the bible. it was man, and man is imperfect. likewise the bible itself is imperfect.


Jim Robinson said:

Marilyn, you made a classic mistake (and argument of Bible critics). Jesus was not a created being -- He is the Creator of all life in this universe. And apart from God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, there are and were no other gods in the universe (another argument of Bible critics). And true "Elohists" are Trinitarians - they do not believe that there were other gods in existence along with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. What you are promoting and describing are the lies and deceptions of the New Age movement which absolutely rejects the absolute Truth of the Divine Scriptures. You are, in fact, a New Ager and not an "Elohist," so please be honest and not deceptive here. Thank you.
The Gospel of John, Chapter 1, verses 1-5 (The Expositor's Study Bible).
1. In the beginning (does not infer that Christ as God had a beginning, because as God He had no beginning, but rather to the time of Creation [Gen. 1:1]) was the Word (the Holy Spirit through John describes Jesus as "the Eternal Logos), and the Word was with God ("was in relationship with God," and expresses the idea of the Trinity), and the Word was God (meaning that He did not cease to be God during the Incarnation; He "was" and "is" God from eternity past to eternity future).

2. The same was in the beginning with God (this very Person was in eternity with God; there's only one God, or godhead, but manifested in three Persons -- God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit).

3. All things were made by Him (all things came into being through Him; it refers to every item of Creation, one by one, rather than all things regarded in totality); and without Him was not any thing made that was made (nothing, not even one single living thing, was made independently of His cooperation and volition).

4. In Him was Life (presents Jesus, the Eternal Logos, as the first cause); and the Life was the Light of men (He alone is the Life Source of Light; if one doesn't know Christ, one is in darkness).

5. And the Light shines in darkness (speaks of the Incarnation of Christ, and His coming into this world; His "Light," because it is derived from His Life, drives out "darkness"); and the darkness comprehended it not (should have been translated, "apprehended it not"; it means that Satan, even though he tried with all his might, could not stop the "Light"; today it shines all over the world, and one day soon, there will be nothing left but that "Light.").

To make the claim that Jesus was a "created being," or that there are many other gods across this universe other than the Blessed Trinity, is an age-old lie and delusion that has been around for a very long time in our history. If God's Word is not absolutely 100 percent true and perfect (and I am not referring to simple difficulties in translating words from one language to another), then the God that wrote the Bible is not perfect either, thus a liar and not worthy of our worship. To suggest that someone can get any spiritual meaning out of a book that is filled with outrageous lies, distortions, and error is a gross oxy-moron. It cannot be done! The Bible must be either fully accepted as God's eternal and inerrant Word or fully rejected as a source of Divine Truth. You simply cannot have it both ways!

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Permalink Reply by Cecelia Peterson on July 5, 2009 at 8:20am

Rick Fuller said:

For those into "abominations": homosexuality, eating shellfish such as shrimp and lobster and wearing mixed clothing and mixing seeds in a field by a farmers, why do some Christians feel that one "abomination" is worse than any other abomination? Aren't all abominations equally dispicable in God’s eye?

Isn't an abomination and abomination?

Eating shellfish: Lev. 11:10-11 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

11:11
They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

Mixings seeds and linen: Leviticus 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee

...and what about Bristol Palin? Is she not guilty of Leviticus 21:9? And the daughter of any spiritual man, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

My feeling is if one is going to run his/her life according to God's word , then they should be 100% committed to doing so and not be selective about which parts of God's words they'll abide by and which ones they won't.

Therefore, I don't expect that a lot of posters here are eating lobster and other shellfish, and they certainly wouldn't wear a wool sweater over a cotton shirt as said posters know that all of these are abominations according to God. Nor have I heard of any Christian rushing to Wasilla, Alaska to burn Bristol Palin with fire.

So which poster is going to Alaska to set Bristol Palin afire?

The answer to all of your questions is Jesus.

Hence the terms Old Testament (old covenant) and New Testament (new covenant).

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Permalink Reply by Cecelia Peterson on July 5, 2009 at 8:33am

Sharona said:

I have a question. I am a christian and have read the bible a long time ago (I need to reread). I am of the mind that homosexuals are born that way. If that is so, how can it be a sin? I do not think people chose to be gay. I did not chose to be a heterosexual and I don't think it is parenting because most gay people are from straight families and often have siblings who are straight? Just thinking aloud.

All people are born into a sinful nature....ALL people. I have things that are weaknesses for me, my husband has things that are weaknesses for him. Part of accepting God is, to me, denying ourselves....our "earthly desires", a weird term so often used but fitting, I guess. To me, homosexuality is no different; a vice for a person to overcome. While we have not had homosexuality in our immediate family, we are a God-fearing family who has experienced in our past (and strive to overcome) smoking addiction, bad tempers, porn addiction, incestuous activity, etc.

For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.

I recently read a novel in which a man who knew himself to be a homosexual gave himself up to a life of chastity because he knew this was the way he knew he needed to live as a man walking with God. How much more pleasing that would be to God to know that that man trusted Him enough to leave his life behind as the disciples did and walk with Him.

My pastor put it like this: Love is acceptable between ALL people, but in not all loving relationships is sex appropriate.

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Permalink Reply by Cecelia Peterson on July 5, 2009 at 8:45am

Shane Hanson said:

Well since he is going to skip what I have to say maybe I will talk about him :P

Or better yet lets go back to discussing the what BetterBob wanted to discuss.

I thing religion is key to a nation of just laws. To say their is no God means there is no truth. I would argue that without the Bible we would have no basis for determining right or wrong. Without God, truth, right and wrong and rights would be dictated by the will of some (fallible) man. If we are beholden to some man (king) for our life, liberty, and property tell me who he is so I may seek his favor.

I content that our rights are derived from a Higher power and hence no man can take or grant or alter them. The very fabric of our nations laws rest on men making themselves accountable to their Creator, so that the legislators would not be forced to write errant laws to make them accountable to other men.

Religion is freedom from the oppression of willful men, who may or may not know anything of right and wrong or truth.

Further God is impartial. You do not have to believe in him to be given the right to life liberty or property. I fact you can curse at him, yell at him, and commit all manner of evil against him and still have all the rights you had before you started your tirade. Where as a man if you tell him he is stupid, he may decide you have no right to any of that.

As well God doesn't care if you are rich or poor, famous or infamous, black, white, or purple, conservative or liberal you get the exact same rights as all the rest, and what you do with them is your choosing. Were as you can see our government officials would favor one class over the next (and conservative are just as guilt as liberals).

I'll take God he's a much fair Judge, King, Person than any man, before or after Jesus, that has ever walked this earth.

I would gladly take the bonds of religion over rights granted by a man, it is like comparing a the freedom of a bird to that of cement boots at the bottom of a lake. And the later is more likely to happen when men grant rights.

Amen!
I have truly run into people who TRULY believe that it is up to each and every individual person to decide for themselves their own definitions of right and wrong. And if it is RIGHT to them, they will practice it....unless it happens to also be against the law, then they might not.

I am so grateful to God that I'm not lost in my life that way. My compass points to Him, and guides me in my marriage (which would have definitely ENDED a long time ago if it weren't for my faith in God's promises...after 15 years, He has finally made my husband a man of God), raising my children, seeking His peace instead of grabbing a cigarette, etc.

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Permalink Reply by Greg Russell on July 5, 2009 at 8:48am

As to who wrote the Bible, it was God, thru men that He chose to fulfill His purpose. Men inspired by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. God would not allow anything to adultrate His Word, either in the original writings, or the translations. Much of this has to be taken on faith and not everyone can do that, as the Bible states, the Word is foolishness to them that are perishing.

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Permalink Reply by Cecelia Peterson on July 5, 2009 at 8:55am

Jason Cannon said:

and also, you claim that the bible must be true. That is however also a lie. The bible was written and passed down by different monks through the dark ages. If a monk did not agree with a scripture, he simply did not write it in the copy that they passed on. Likewise, they would add things in there to make what they want scripture.
also, god did not write the bible. Man did. It is a collection of writings from human beings under divine inspiration. still god himself did not write the bible. it was man, and man is imperfect. likewise the bible itself is imperfect.

The Bible is the inspired Word of God, and though technically penned by men, we are taught that by God's design, His Word is the end result.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Cannon on July 5, 2009 at 10:07am

Who appointed the Council of Nicea? It was man. Other than the Mormons, which I am, i believe that no other religion believes in modern prophets. God withdrew his prophets and apostles following the great apostasy. They were all killed. Could these men called be inspired of god? yes. But as I said before. Men are not perfect. And without direct revelation from god, which was taken from earth because of the great apostasy, being inspired of god can be interpreted wrong. So did they get together and decide to just change the bible? No. They just got together and standardized the bible, as they interpreted it. AS THEY INTERPRETED IT. Is the bible the word of god? Absolutely. Is it perfect? It would be naive to think so.

As for books about this? I have none. If i found any, more times than naught it would be official Mormon doctrine being taught. And most non-Mormons would reject anything Mormon taught as a falsity. If however you do want to see these books, i can still recommend them.

Marilyn Merrick said:

Jason,

You again bring up a very valid point. The Council of Nicea "tooketh away" and "addeth" a lot of writings. I think a question that should be asked always is 'Who appointed the Council?'. Who were these people that gave themselves the right to edit the Word of God? I don't believe God was speaking to them in regards to this editorial procedure. The finished product also afforded much power to the church afterwards. Just a thought. I was wondering if you had any input on this subject, also do you believe that the original texts are in existance and intact as the Essenes have hidden them? Things are to be revealed in the end days, so I am assuming there are still books out there, or information at least. Let me know your thoughts. Betterbob, I want to thank you for starting this interesting discussion. I am new on this site and these comments are very informative.

Jason Cannon said:

and also, you claim that the bible must be true. That is however also a lie. The bible was written and passed down by different monks through the dark ages. If a monk did not agree with a scripture, he simply did not write it in the copy that they passed on. Likewise, they would add things in there to make what they want scripture.

also, god did not write the bible. Man did. It is a collection of writings from human beings under divine inspiration. still god himself did not write the bible. it was man, and man is imperfect. likewise the bible itself is imperfect.


Jim Robinson said:

Marilyn, you made a classic mistake (and argument of Bible critics). Jesus was not a created being -- He is the Creator of all life in this universe. And apart from God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, there are and were no other gods in the universe (another argument of Bible critics). And true "Elohists" are Trinitarians - they do not believe that there were other gods in existence along with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. What you are promoting and describing are the lies and deceptions of the New Age movement which absolutely rejects the absolute Truth of the Divine Scriptures. You are, in fact, a New Ager and not an "Elohist," so please be honest and not deceptive here. Thank you.
The Gospel of John, Chapter 1, verses 1-5 (The Expositor's Study Bible).
1. In the beginning (does not infer that Christ as God had a beginning, because as God He had no beginning, but rather to the time of Creation [Gen. 1:1]) was the Word (the Holy Spirit through John describes Jesus as "the Eternal Logos), and the Word was with God ("was in relationship with God," and expresses the idea of the Trinity), and the Word was God (meaning that He did not cease to be God during the Incarnation; He "was" and "is" God from eternity past to eternity future).

2. The same was in the beginning with God (this very Person was in eternity with God; there's only one God, or godhead, but manifested in three Persons -- God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit).

3. All things were made by Him (all things came into being through Him; it refers to every item of Creation, one by one, rather than all things regarded in totality); and without Him was not any thing made that was made (nothing, not even one single living thing, was made independently of His cooperation and volition).

4. In Him was Life (presents Jesus, the Eternal Logos, as the first cause); and the Life was the Light of men (He alone is the Life Source of Light; if one doesn't know Christ, one is in darkness).

5. And the Light shines in darkness (speaks of the Incarnation of Christ, and His coming into this world; His "Light," because it is derived from His Life, drives out "darkness"); and the darkness comprehended it not (should have been translated, "apprehended it not"; it means that Satan, even though he tried with all his might, could not stop the "Light"; today it shines all over the world, and one day soon, there will be nothing left but that "Light.").

To make the claim that Jesus was a "created being," or that there are many other gods across this universe other than the Blessed Trinity, is an age-old lie and delusion that has been around for a very long time in our history. If God's Word is not absolutely 100 percent true and perfect (and I am not referring to simple difficulties in translating words from one language to another), then the God that wrote the Bible is not perfect either, thus a liar and not worthy of our worship. To suggest that someone can get any spiritual meaning out of a book that is filled with outrageous lies, distortions, and error is a gross oxy-moron. It cannot be done! The Bible must be either fully accepted as God's eternal and inerrant Word or fully rejected as a source of Divine Truth. You simply cannot have it both ways!

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Permalink Reply by Jason Cannon on July 5, 2009 at 10:14am

you say that. And yet the bible is so different from the New International Version and the King James Version. scriptures from one are missing in the other. This is all because of human error. Originally the bible was perfect. but man corrupted it. Also god would allow anything to happen. If he would let his son, the messiah to be killed, then he would allow for the bible to be twisted. Its called free will. It is a great gift from god that comes at a terrible price. We can do anything we want, we just cant choose the consequences. Those that corrupted the bible will surely pay for what they did at the judgement day. but what they did is done.

Greg Russell said:

As to who wrote the Bible, it was God, thru men that He chose to fulfill His purpose. Men inspired by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. God would not allow anything to adultrate His Word, either in the original writings, or the translations. Much of this has to be taken on faith and not everyone can do that, as the Bible states, the Word is foolishness to them that are perishing.

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Permalink Reply by Jim Robinson on July 5, 2009 at 1:30pm

I find it amazing that Mormons and New Agers pretend to love or accept the Bible while at the same time rejecting and condemning everything about the Bible that makes it unique and different from every other religious book in the world. Jason has no idea what he's talking about when he repeatedly and falsely claims that men wrote and perverted God's pure Word and that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found anywhere in the Bible, and Marilyn believes that there are many gods and many religions that men can follow and still somehow make it to Heaven. The point here is that neither one of them are honestly or accurately reflecting the proper views, teachings, and facts of true Christians, the Early Church, or Church history -- and this is a fact that both of them are freely neglecting or refusing to admit.

If Marilyn wants to promote and defend New Age-ism, and if Jason wants to promote and defend Mormonism, then let them -- but they should be honest enough to admit what they are doing without pretending to defend twisted versions and concepts of the Bible that true Christians and Bible Christianity will never accept or recognize. As a true Bible scholar (a genuine Christian) that actually accepts the Bible for what it is (the Holy Spirit inspired, God-written, infallible, eternal, perfect Word of God for all of eternity), I will properly challenge and rightly condemn any distortion of the Bible and True Christianity from people like Marilyn and Jason that only attack and condemn things that they really do not understand.

While Marilyn and Jason are certainly entitled to their personal opinions (as wrong as they might be), and while they are not obligated to believe the Bible (if they freely choose not to do so), they are most certainly NOT entitled to freely distort and misrepresent the Bible, True Christianity, Bible teachings, or Church History to suit their whims and fancies (as both of them have freely done). Their arguments against the Bible, Church history, and the doctrine of the Trinity are absolutely ludicrous and shameful. As a Christian have I accurately, faithfully, and calmly represented Christian positions on the Bible -- Marilyn and Jason have not! So pardon me for not lying to you as they have both now done.

The Bible is the absolute, inerrant, infallible, perfect, and eternal Word of the True and Living God of the Bible, and no one can pretend or claim to be a "true Christian" if they reject the Trinity (Triune-unity) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (as taught by Christ, his apostles and disciples, and all of the Early Church) -- and this is the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, so help me God! So pardon me if I now excuse myself from a group that has degenerated into attacking the Bible instead of freely discussing what it actually does - and does not - teach (or its historical impact on our laws, Constitution, and American culture).

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Permalink Reply by Greg Russell on July 5, 2009 at 1:45pm

Jason, either you believe, or you reject that God is sovereign, that He controls everything, or He doesn`t. I believe He is indeed sovereign, and thus, wouldn`t allow His word to be perverted.

He sacrificed His Son to pay the penalty for our sins, I hardly think He`d allow a counterfeit version of His Word to lead people astray.

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Permalink Reply by jim harris on July 5, 2009 at 2:04pm

everyone wants a feel good god but thats not the way it is, some pray to saints when he said I am the one true god and thou shalt not pray to any other ! some want to think they can be come god like as if! but yet they have never read the bible, and have no clue as to the fact that the bible will take up a bookcase and is hebrew
poetry and must be studied to find the meanings. simply thinking you read a passage you can know its meaning is wrong! somethings have no meaning in your life cain slew able and was sent to a city, what city if they were the first 2 children, It means nothing to us at this time so why bother trying to understand the meaning of somthing we need not know! the father sun and holy ghost is not what will get you in to heaven I can't wrap my mind around it my self, but god is much to large to think I can know all. all we need he has given us ! for we know the truth jim! some don't want to learn the truth they want to feel good!
Jim Robinson said:

I find it amazing that Mormons and New Agers pretend to love or accept the Bible while at the same time rejecting and condemning everything about the Bible that makes it unique and different from every other religious book in the world. Jason has no idea what he's talking about when he repeatedly and falsely claims that men wrote and perverted God's pure Word and that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found anywhere in the Bible, and Marilyn believes that there are many gods and many religions that men can follow and still somehow make it to Heaven. The point here is that neither one of them are honestly or accurately reflecting the proper views, teachings, and facts of true Christians, the Early Church, or Church history -- and this is a fact that both of them are freely neglecting or refusing to admit.

If Marilyn wants to promote and defend New Age-ism, and if Jason wants to promote and defend Mormonism, then let them -- but they should be honest enough to admit what they are doing without pretending to defend twisted versions and concepts of the Bible that true Christians and Bible Christianity will never accept or recognize. As a true Bible scholar (a genuine Christian) that actually accepts the Bible for what it is (the Holy Spirit inspired, God-written, infallible, eternal, perfect Word of God for all of eternity), I will properly challenge and rightly condemn any distortion of the Bible and True Christianity from people like Marilyn and Jason that only attack and condemn things that they really do not understand.

While Marilyn and Jason are certainly entitled to their personal opinions (as wrong as they might be), and while they are not obligated to believe the Bible (if they freely choose not to do so), they are most certainly NOT entitled to freely distort and misrepresent the Bible, True Christianity, Bible teachings, or Church History to suit their whims and fancies (as both of them have freely done). Their arguments against the Bible, Church history, and the doctrine of the Trinity are absolutely ludicrous and shameful. As a Christian have I accurately, faithfully, and calmly represented Christian positions on the Bible -- Marilyn and Jason have not! So pardon me for not lying to you as they have both now done.

The Bible is the absolute, inerrant, infallible, perfect, and eternal Word of the True and Living God of the Bible, and no one can pretend or claim to be a "true Christian" if they reject the Trinity (Triune-unity) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (as taught by Christ, his apostles and disciples, and all of the Early Church) -- and this is the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, so help me God! So pardon me if I now excuse myself from a group that has degenerated into attacking the Bible instead of freely discussing what it actually does - and does not - teach (or its historical impact on our laws, Constitution, and American culture).

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Permalink Reply by Jason Cannon on July 5, 2009 at 5:44pm

True christians? Excuse me? What makes a true christian Jim. It nevers says anywhere in the bible that there is a trinity. Again is was decided in 325 AD, almost 280 YEARS AFTER CHRIST DIED. I do love the bible. It is the word of god. but parts of it have been perverted by men. You claim its perfect? Then explain to me this jim. Why is the New International Version and the King James Version of the bible so different? Scriptures from one are completly missing from another one. You claim we pervert the bible? Yet two denominations of you so-called "genuine christians" argue the same scriptures as meaning two different things. Infact this is how all protestant religions were started. Becuase they didnt agree with catholic teachings. So what is a true christian jim. Lets look to the bible to find out. The bible says that a christian is someone who follows the teachings of christ. Ok fine. I belong to the church of JESUS CHRIST of latter day saints. Thus I am a true christian. I do not attack people or claim that they are not christians becuase we view the bible differently becuase that is not a christian thing to do. So ask yourself who a real christian is Jim.

Jim Robinson said:

I find it amazing that Mormons and New Agers pretend to love or accept the Bible while at the same time rejecting and condemning everything about the Bible that makes it unique and different from every other religious book in the world. Jason has no idea what he's talking about when he repeatedly and falsely claims that men wrote and perverted God's pure Word and that the doctrine of the Trinity is not found anywhere in the Bible, and Marilyn believes that there are many gods and many religions that men can follow and still somehow make it to Heaven. The point here is that neither one of them are honestly or accurately reflecting the proper views, teachings, and facts of true Christians, the Early Church, or Church history -- and this is a fact that both of them are freely neglecting or refusing to admit.

If Marilyn wants to promote and defend New Age-ism, and if Jason wants to promote and defend Mormonism, then let them -- but they should be honest enough to admit what they are doing without pretending to defend twisted versions and concepts of the Bible that true Christians and Bible Christianity will never accept or recognize. As a true Bible scholar (a genuine Christian) that actually accepts the Bible for what it is (the Holy Spirit inspired, God-written, infallible, eternal, perfect Word of God for all of eternity), I will properly challenge and rightly condemn any distortion of the Bible and True Christianity from people like Marilyn and Jason that only attack and condemn things that they really do not understand.

While Marilyn and Jason are certainly entitled to their personal opinions (as wrong as they might be), and while they are not obligated to believe the Bible (if they freely choose not to do so), they are most certainly NOT entitled to freely distort and misrepresent the Bible, True Christianity, Bible teachings, or Church History to suit their whims and fancies (as both of them have freely done). Their arguments against the Bible, Church history, and the doctrine of the Trinity are absolutely ludicrous and shameful. As a Christian have I accurately, faithfully, and calmly represented Christian positions on the Bible -- Marilyn and Jason have not! So pardon me for not lying to you as they have both now done.

The Bible is the absolute, inerrant, infallible, perfect, and eternal Word of the True and Living God of the Bible, and no one can pretend or claim to be a "true Christian" if they reject the Trinity (Triune-unity) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (as taught by Christ, his apostles and disciples, and all of the Early Church) -- and this is the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, so help me God! So pardon me if I now excuse myself from a group that has degenerated into attacking the Bible instead of freely discussing what it actually does - and does not - teach (or its historical impact on our laws, Constitution, and American culture).

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